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This page is not a forum for general discussion about the Illuminati. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about the Illuminati at the Reference desk. Do not ask, here or at the Reference Desk, to join the Illuminati. Wikipedia is not the Illuminati.
the freemasons are not illuminati.
Freemasonry is not a secret society. You can find anything you want on line and in the real world. It is perceived to be secret but it is not. It is just discreet. D612m (talk) 01:29, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a clear link between Freemasonry and the historical Illuminati, with its founder being a former Freemason and several lodges being influenced. They also both were secret societies, until these were banned and the Freemasons forced to maintain membership lists etc. in 1785 by the Holy Roman Empire. Calling it "discreet" is (I'm assuming) a modern approach, which doesn't apply to the 18th century versions of both organisations. Call me Matt - Bling Collector12:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
of course there are links. But Freemasonry is not secret. Here it reads as a blanket statement that Freemasonry is a secret society. It should be clarified that: Freemasonry although perceived as secret, especially in the 18th century, is a discreet society. 38.122.241.122 (talk) 12:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article is discussing 18th century organisations. At the time, the Freemasons were a secret society. That is not open to dispute. If modern Freemasons have issues with accurate statements regarding historical events that is their problem, not ours. We are not going to misrepresent what our sources say for their convenience. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Meh… a lot depends on what region of the world you are talking about, and what you mean by the term “secret society”.
In the UK and its American colonies, for example, the Freemasons of the 18th century frequently marched public processions dressed in their Masonic regalia. They definitely did not keep membership secret. In European countries (and especially Catholic countries), however, they were far more “secret”… even as to membership.
We also have the problem of defining what sources mean when they call something a “secret society”. Today, that term conjures images of masked men in robes, meeting to plan something nefarious… but as recently as the 1960s the term was used much more broadly - to describe any fraternal group that had “secret” handshakes, passwords and initiation rituals they did not share with non-members - this included college fraternities and eating clubs, the animal fraternities (Elks, Lions, Raccoons and Waterbuffalo), the Knights of Columbus and even the Boy Scouts’ Order of the Arrow. It is estimated that, in the 1920s, one in five American men belonged to at least one “secret society”.
All that said… in the context of the 18th century… there is good reason why the Illuminati was based in Germany. GERMAN Freemasonry in that era was indeed far more “secretive” than its UK or American counterparts. It was also far more “esoteric” in outlook than Anglo Freemasonry. Blueboar (talk) 14:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article is only about the Illuminati secret society founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776, which ceased to function in the 1780s. That is all it is about. Any more recent organisation calling itself 'Illuminati' (of which there have been many) is off topic. None have been given significant coverage in independent published reliable sources, and none, despite their claims to the contrary, have any meaningful connection with Weishaupt's organisation. Most appear to be little more than means to extract money from the gullible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rosicrucians
I seek to delete stuff about Rosicrucian from the article. Reason: Rosicrucians appeared in the 1760s, so they were too late to have quarreled with the Illuminati.
Edighoffer, Roland (2005). "Rosicrucianism I: First half of the 17th Century". In Hanegraaff, Wouter J.; Faivre, Antoine; Broek, Roelof van den; Brach, Jean-Pierre (eds.). Dictionary of Gnosis & Western Esotericism: I. Brill. p. 1009. ISBN978-90-04-14187-2. The manifestoes originated in the "Learned and Christian Society" established by → Johann Valentin Andreae in Tübingen in 1610. This small group of bosom friends of Andreae's, notably Christoph Besold and Tobias Hess (his amici secretissimi), together conceived of and constructed the Rosicrucian myth.
Edighoffer 2005, p. 1014: "This influence remained literary, however: there is no proof that the Brotherhood of the Rose Cross described in the Fama Fraternitatis ever existed, and it is only in the 18th century that actual organizations calling themselves “rosicrucian” first come into existence."
That is, 1762 is the birth of a Rosicrucian degree in Freemasonry. In 1763 was apparently founded the first Rosicrucian order.
From the birth of the first Rosicrucian organization till the sunset of the Illuminati were less than 25 years, so I guess that it is a rather short time for fighting against each other. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Edighoffer 2005, p. 1016: "He then went to Leipzig, and next to Wiesbaden, and entered into relations with J.C. Wöllner (1732- 1800); this former pastor who had become a Freemason was thirsty for supernatural knowledge, and had been accepted into the Rosicrucian circle of Berlin in 1779."
So, Wöllner could only speak as a Rosicrucian against Illuminati for 8 years, which makes it rather improbable. And till 1783 (the decision of Frederick the Great) were only 4 years. So, again, the idea that Wöllner became an important Rosicrucian and convinced the Freemasons that the Illuminati were dangerous, seems improbable.
In the same book Monika Neugebauer-Wölk states that the Illuminati cultivated not only Enlightenment rationalism, but also Christian theosophy and Gnosticism. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Once again… WHICH Rosecrucians are we talking about? There were several groups that were influenced by Rosecrucianism running around in Germany at the time. “Rosecrucianism” wasn’t one monolithic thing. So which group are we talking about? Blueboar (talk) 00:54, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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